How to Build a Genuinely Caring & Committed Community

What Makes a Real Community vs Marketing BS

Joe Glover: Yeah. So, you know, first of all, thank you for the piece about the engagement. You know, is incredible that people are as engaged as they are when we sort of think about definitions of community. First of all, it drives me nuts. You know, the community has become like a buzzword in sort of like the commercial space because it’s lost its meaning. So I love that you’ve started up here up front with a definition. So for me, community is not a broadcast. It’s a place where people come together, they can communicate with each other. So it’s not me going out to the and saying, here’s a message. It’s a bunch of people communicating with each other beyond just the organizer. Secondly, it’s a place where people come to benefit each other as well. So people come into this space and say, we’re going to be stronger than we were alone. We’re going to lift each other up, and ultimately we’re going to get better together. And then finally, there’s just elements of, like, you know, the impact of community is far greater than any one person. So, you know, there’s examples where, for example, we launched our sessions on Monday and we actually asked the community to help us launch. Us launch it with us. So we had over 100 people sort of on that day launch the event with us. And that was just an example of community in action, where folks had come together to make a message far louder than they would have been possible if it was just me. If it was just me and my mates or whatever, you know. So I think there’s a general sort of theme here where people are coming together selflessly. They’re coming together to help each other, and they’re coming together to communicate and sort of make each other better.

Louis: So give me an example of the community coming together to lift each other up. I mean, one example of supporting you, definitely, like, you’ve announced a new range of speakers for the next while. So that’s okay. That’s quite impressive. But I think you have better. I wouldn’t say better, but you have different examples of when each, like, other members help each other and you’re not even involved. Can you give me one?

Joe Glover: Well, 100%. So there’s stuff like we did a one pound challenge a long time ago, and this was. We gave one pound to every attendee who came to the marketing meetup and prompted them to. To go and make someone else’s day with this £1. So it was almost like a token. And the next day we had like a tweet storm of folks coming in together. And, you know, people had bought flowers for other people, having topped up the one pound. They’d given that one pound to someone in the queue in front of them in the supermarket. They’d given the one pound to a homeless person or something like that. So that was a group of people who, outside of the marketing, you know, you and I are interested in marketing because we bloody love it, you know, but, like, this was people benefiting other people’s lives. But you did actually ask the question, like, more about, like, not prompted. So the other example is stuff like the Facebook group. So we use a Facebook group. I’m not going to spend a lot of time speaking about the marketing meetup. Hopefully in the session. I want to sort of speak more generally about it. We have a Facebook group and now it’s really lovely to see, you know, people coming in, asking questions, giving advice and stuff like that. And it’s completely unprompted by. By me, you know, in fact, I had a guy the other day. You know, inevitably you get with these things. There’s like the odd bit of spam from time to time, and there was a guy who sort of highlighted like a bit of spam to me for the first time in a while. And like, you know, I hadn’t been into the group for a couple of days because, you know, it’s become so self sufficient on that basis. So it’s really quite nice in that way that you can sort of see that activity sort of take place in the virtual world as well as the physical one.

Louis: Nice. So let’s have fun a bit because recently I, someone messaged me on LinkedIn and said, Hey, I wrote an article like I wrote a top 10 facts about me type of article that he saw from a newsletter. Like I have an automated email that goes after you subscribe, after a while, gives you like 10 facts about me anyway. And he said that, yeah, I had like no bullshit style and that could come off as very abrasive sometimes. Right. And I took that as a massive compliment because I’m cultivating it. That’s who I am and I’m cultivating it. And the reason why I’m going back to this is because let’s be abrasive a bit, or at least I’m going to be. Let’s name a few elements of the bullshit of community, like as a buzzword in today’s world. Let’s name a few things that you hate about what it became.

Joe Glover: I think, you know, the principal one is that it’s being used as a word without any substance behind it. Someone will say welcome to our community, but actually it’s just a customer base and that there’s a big difference between people who use something and then people who use something and communicate with each other to make each other better at it. So I think that’s my primary gripe is, you know, like it’s a very, very different thing to a customer base. It’s a place where people come almost selflessly to communicate, to get better, to learn. And that is not a customer base, you know, that is a very, very different thing. So I think, I think that’s like the principal thing. But then of course, you know, the sort of second level things which go with that, you know, using the word community in marketing without any substance behind it, you know, welcome to our community. And then you walk into a co working space and everyone’s a bit gruff and doesn’t say hello and the coffee’s not very nice and stuff like that, you know, that’s not our community, you know, it is. It’s a place which people want to be. It’s not a place which people have to be. So I think that’s, that’s probably two, two sort of like moments where I’m like, yeah, that’s not a community. That’s. That’s just, you know, marketing bullshit.

Louis: We don’t have to name names. That’s not the point. We want to blame the hate the game, not the players. Right, but can you give an example of, of like a. Something that you’ve seen recently that just doesn’t feel like a community, doesn’t have to name the company or whatever, but like maybe a specific.

Joe Glover: Yeah, so I think this was the pre Covid world, you know, but like co working spaces quite frequently will use the term community and even more than that, they will sort of sell themselves on the basis of that, you know, come into our building and you will be amongst hundreds of people who are willing to speak to you. You can network, you can meet, you can get coffee, you know, you sell this utopian dream. But the reality is you walk into these spaces and people have got their heads down on their laptops and their headphones on and they don’t speak to you all day. While there are elements of this which they do really well. So like events, they bring events into the space, which means that people do have those opportunities. I think it’s a falsehood in many times to sort of say this is a community spirit. Now this is a, this is a functional space which people use because they like it and they like the coffee that comes from the membership, but they don’t necessarily have that tie into like a genuine community where people are like, you know, treating each other like colleagues. And so, yeah, I’d say like there have been occasions where I’ve walked out of certain spaces and felt a little bit slimy for it, which is a shame, you know, because it has the potential to be a community, but it’s a lot of work to be able to get to that place.

Louis: Yeah, it’s a great example. I used to be a member of a co working space and the owner is very, very, very nice guy and he did his best to create a community feeling around it by first of all, you would select the people coming in. You wouldn’t just accept anyone willing to pay. You would always organize drinks on every like last Friday of every month and always be very nice and try to include everyone and all of that. So I think there was this feeling of community there, but I can definitely feel the opposite. And yeah, I mean to me online, what I see happening more and more, that just very annoying is just leveraging algorithms and stuff like that to create a sense of, yeah, you’re part of a community when in fact you’re not. You’re just part of a group that got kind of hacked together by the use of external triggers to make you feel like you’re part of a community that cares. And I can see from. I have created a small group of people, like a small community on Facebook that is part of the way they’re like, stuff around the podcast. And even though we are just a few hundreds, I can. I know for a fact that those people give a shit because I make it very difficult for it to. For them to join. I don’t announce it very often. I only announce it in the email list. And I can see the difference in terms of the E word, the engagement, you know. So, yeah, there’s a lot going on and I think. I think you’ve done it so, so, so fucking well that I want to impact, unpack it so that others can learn from it. So let’s go back to the beginning. If you had to advise a company or someone or founder to actually create a community by the real sense of the word and the way you would describe it, how would you advise them to do so? And you can pick an example that is like a real example. You don’t have to name names, or you can just invent something, a circumstance that, like, on context, that would fit. But what. Where would you start? With what would be kind of the first step?

Three Steps to Building Community: Market Orientation First

Joe Glover: Absolutely. So I think, you know, this is. While there will be people who don’t identify themselves as marketers who listen to this podcast, I’d say the majority probably, you know, have. Have at least a strong interest in it. So I’d actually treat this a little bit like a marketing exercise, and I’d apply Mark Ritson’s model, you know, so he speaks about market orientation, then strategy, then tactics. You know, I think about it in terms of those three steps, and I’m going to try and sort of retrofit my own story around these three steps, so to speak. It wasn’t precisely how it happened, but when you’re trying to give advice, this is the most logical way to sort of speak about it. In the sort of market orientation stage, you’re just trying to understand what the market actually wants, what it needs. This could be down to, you know, a gap in the market, but it could also be how people are doing it, why they’re doing it, you know, and those can be real points of differentiation. So, for example, in my set of circumstances, I’m far more introverted than I am extroverted, you know, and I was walking into networking events and I was either terrified to say hello to people or when I did say hello, then people would sell, you know, and. And if they didn’t sell, then they just wouldn’t be interested because I didn’t have anything, you know, I didn’t have the fancy job title. So for me, I knew that I wanted to create a space which felt safe and welcoming and that I could learn and not walk away and feel like, you know, I had a horrible experience. So right there on the market orientation element of things, we’ve identified that there’s a need for an event or a space which people come to. We’ve identified that the difference, the market differentiation here is not going to be an event because everyone does events. The thing that’s going to be different is how we do it and why we do it. So how we do it. It’s going to be friendly, it’s going to be welcoming, it’s going to be an informative place with short talks. And the why is. Is, you know, that we want to base it in kindness. So that’s the first step. You know, if I was advising someone to start a group, a community, I’d be saying, you know, what’s the genuine need here? You know, are you going to be doing anything different in the market? Take the time to understand what’s out there. And it’s okay if you do something similar to someone else as long as you do it in a different way with a different why or a different how. Secondly, I’d then start looking at the strategy or, you know, before we move

Louis: on to strategy, there’s a lot to unpack here. So you naturally, kind of. In retrospect, it’s always easy. I think as people who’ve achieved a few things, launch a few projects that worked and whatnot. It’s easy to kind of summarize in very simple terms and it’s just impossible to just advise someone to. In the details of it because you have to just fucking do it and get started and make mistakes, learn from it. And it’s the sum of all those very small decisions throughout the day, each day for months and years that, that lead to that result. So obviously it’s never fair to summarize it that. But I think this is a very important step. So it seems like there’s two aspects to this market orientation diagnosis. Part understanding the market. One is kind of the, the famous solving your own problem type of thing.

Joe Glover: Yeah.

Louis: And the other one is looking outwards, looking at what’s going on there and potentially even talking to people to understand whether it’s only you feeling this way or not. And I just want to make a quick note on this. Usually, I mean, maybe. Maybe you have a different opinion on this, but I feel like when you have a pain point like that, when you feel, oh, yeah, I’m like, more introverted. I’d like a different way to deal with events and whatnot. Usually it’s very rare. I think with 7 billion people on Earth, there’s almost always other people feeling the same thing. Right. You can’t just be that unique. So do you agree or disagree on this statement, first of all?

Joe Glover: Oh, 100%. 100%, yeah. And I think for that reason, in my particular scenario, I led with a challenge that I was having personally and was working on the assumption that other people would also have that problem.

Starting with Your Own Problems (Not Market Research)

Louis: And how did you surface that? So it came to you after you going to networking events, and did it come to you like that in the morning, waking up, or just gradually come to this conclusion?

Joe Glover: Well, not. Not at all. It didn’t come to me like that at all. You know, I. I didn’t think of it like a business problem. You know, it’s got to be said that this started as a hobby. It didn’t start as a business, didn’t start with the intent of being a community. You know, we’re even retrofitting that term onto something, which I kind of just did, you know, so when you were sort of saying, you know, you kind of just do stuff, you know, that’s kind of what I did in this set of circumstances. So I’d actually say for folks listening to this, then if we’re going to be cognizant of solving a problem, then it’s far better to sort of start by just looking at problems you’ve got in your own life and just sort of saying, you know, what’s going on? You know, and actually doing an, you know, having a conscious exercise of saying, you know, what’s going on that I don’t like and I don’t feel comfortable with. I knew that I loved marketing because, you know, for me, that’s like meeting the needs of the customer. So it feels like it’s improving someone else’s life. So, like, I knew that I loved that, but. And I knew that I wanted to learn more, but I knew that I was really, really uncomfortable walking into those rooms. So, like, it wasn’t like, I’m going to start an event or something like that. It was just like, you know, I’ve got a problem. And actually, if you want the God honest truth? Then I bought a subscription to meetup.com and I wouldn’t have any friends if it wasn’t for playing football. Like, I literally wouldn’t. And so I started the Cambridge All Abilities welcome Football Meetup and sort of invited a bunch of folks down to there, but the subscription’s like 50 quid or something like that for every three months or something like that. So I was like, I’m going to make the most of this. So I just started something else that I was interested in as well, which was the Cambridge Marketing Meetup, you know, and that’s what it was called at the time. So it was. It was very intuitive. We are now playing with the benefit of hindsight and sort of saying, you know, there was a problem that I was looking to solve, but I think intuitively I knew that I didn’t feel comfortable in other environments, so I wanted to solve that problem. But it’s only with the benefit of hindsight that I’m like, yeah, that was the problem that I was solving, if that makes sense.

Louis: Yeah, absolutely. Which is why it’s so important to speak with this caveat. It’s so easy to interview people and we tend to summarize and forget certain things, and it’s not as easy as it sounds when. Without the benefit of hindsight. So thanks for mentioning this. So to unpack this a bit, it’s very similar to my story where before starting the podcast, I had, like, I did two small talks in the Dublin Chamber of Commerce interviewing founders of bootstrap companies. There was like 50 people or less in each. But, yeah, the feedback that I got mostly was, yeah, they enjoyed the way I was interviewing people, but I. There wasn’t a plan. And then I started to interview people online and then it turned into this. And so that’s. I think that’s the point. Right, you just need to fucking get started and follow the. I know it sounds a bit spiritual, but follow this energy that you have. Like to say, I really want to do this and to unpack what you did. It’s very important here to say that what seems to be particularly important is to externalize those thoughts and those feelings, those emotions that you felt at the time, going through those events and not taking them for granted. And I think that’s a big mistake. People do when they think of stuff. They don’t want to challenge the status quo. Well, every other event is the same shitty way. And so I must be feeling and thinking something. I must be wrong feeling this way. I must Adapt to them because everyone else is doing this way. And instead, no, if you feel this way, then there is a reason for it. And don’t take that for granted. Don’t try to fight it. You are the way you are, and I like that part of your story. For this, it’s not about just accepting your fate and saying, oh, fuck, you know, I’m not made for events. It’s more, how can I, you know, fit a solution that would. That would fit my problem?

Joe Glover: Sorry, but that’s a great, great way of thinking about it. You know, how. How can I find a solution to my problem? You know, Nailed it right there. You know, if that’s the first step, you know, I feel like that’s probably it.

Louis: But people definitely take it for granted, I can tell you that. So just to speak to you directly, not you, Joe, not you, the guest, but you, listening. Don’t take those thoughts for granted. Don’t talk those emotions for granted. If you’re feeling them this way, externalize them, write them down, and you’ll see that it starts to become something quite tangible. And not everyone thinks the same way. You have a different context, different life experience that makes you unique in this way. So don’t take it for granted. Okay, so we have this kind of introspection side in a sense, like, you know, whatever happens, like you feel, ah, shit, I wish there was that, or I wish I could, what if there was an event where I would feel comfortable as an introvert? That kind of stuff. Right. The other is the market orientation towards actual, you know, other people. So did you. Did you just take a bet and just said, yeah, let me. Let me make the most out of those 50 quid and launch this, the Combridge Marketing Meetup. Or did you ask a few people around, like, how did. What was the thought process there?

Joe Glover: The thought process, the validation actually came from establishing the group on meetup.com and then seeing within, I don’t know, three weeks that there was like 100 members or something like that. You know, there was an interest there. So the process, when you go about setting up a group on Meetup, this is, you know, far more tactical. But, you know, you’re asked to provide the description, you know, like a group sort of name. So the description I wrote was something along the lines of the Cambridge Marketing Meetup is a friendly, informal place where people come and don’t sell or something like that. You know, it was an externalization of the things that I was feeling internally. You know, you go to these places and not feel Safe or you feel like you have to wear a suit or whatever it was. So it was in effect capturing those emotions and then writing that down. So yeah, you know, those were the first steps and the validation actually came in the following three weeks. There was 100 people in the group. So I was like, well, I better organize something then. So really that’s how that started.

Louis: Yeah, yeah. To go tactical a bit. Meetup.com as of the day we are recording this episode. They do a lot of heavy lifting when it comes to organic reach for free for you. Like as soon as you create a group, they want to make sure you get members. So it’s kind of a free way to get the first few members. It reminds me of a guest I had, Tommy Griffiths, who’s selling like SEO courses and stuff like that and same he started with a meetup using meetup.com and that kind of promoted the event for him. Okay, so you took a bet, like you just went for it. You had nothing to lose in a sense. You didn’t listen to the voice in your head that told you, yeah, you’re an easier doing this, don’t do this. There is a reason why there’s no marketing meetup at Cambridge. Like, am I right to assume that there was some, some of that self doubt?

Joe Glover: I don’t know actually, you know, in that moment I was probably too stupid to realize, so I just did it.

Louis: That’s even better. So you just did it. You didn’t overthink it. And how did the first night go then? How did the first meetup go?

The First Cambridge Marketing Meetup: 50 People Showed Up

Joe Glover: Well, that was, that was the moment of, you know, pure encouragement. So like 50 people came to the first event which was like, it was bonkers, you know, and I would say, you know, that with meetup.com, you know, it was right time, right place. But I do think there’s ways of means about going about this still. But like right time, right place, 50 people came to the first event. It was like, wow, yeah, okay, you know, we’re onto something. But again, it wasn’t because it wasn’t run for profit, you know, it was just run as a solution to a problem. You know, it was, it was just a really nice night. You know, we had a couple of speakers and you learned stuff and people came along and that was just really, really nice. I mean one thing I did do there so was, you know, I spoke with a couple of of local organizations who would have access to other marketers. So I got in touch with a recruitment company in brand recruitment and then Came to Martin College who do like CIM stuff and like I said to them, would you mind covering the buffet? So we put out like a very, very average buffet in return for being treated as sponsors. I just got in touch with their MDs via LinkedIn, you know, and asked them whether they’d be interested. And I do remember in a meeting that I had with somebody right at the beginning, I think it was the first meeting I ever took about the marketing meetup and you know, as a 24 year old kid at this stage, you know, and I sort of went up to this, you know, the guy and so said, I’ve got this idea and this is what I’m going to be doing and the event’s going to be run now. And he said, there’s been a few people who tried this before, but you know, whatever, we’ll put 50 quid behind the buffet and we’ll see where it goes type of thing. And like it was very dismissive in that, in that moment, probably because he had like 50 different things going on that day. He was actually a really, really good guy, you know, but I just thought that that was really funny as well. So on a very tactical level, I think there’s something to be said for aligning yourself with folks who have access to a large amount of people that you would like to be reaching as well. So that was a very, very crucial part of finding that initial momentum.

Louis: Interesting. I wouldn’t have thought of recruitment agencies and what’s the other company you said?

Joe Glover: So they do like CIM qualifications.

Louis: So maybe I would have thought of that, but maybe not even. But the recruitment agency, I, yeah, I’ve never thought of it about it, but makes total sense. Especially if they specialize in like the brand marketing side.

Joe Glover: Absolutely.

Louis: Interesting.

Joe Glover: Yeah.

Louis: So you borrowed other people’s audiences and funnily enough, the other guest where we talked about community a bit, we rarely talk about that topic, but mentioned something similar like borrowing other people’s audiences that align with you and reaching out. So going back to the initial question I asked you, I asked you about how would you advise someone else. You mentioned something briefly that I want to come back to. You mentioned, you know, what is the thing that you’re going to create that is different from the rest? Like it can’t just be yet another event, there’s plenty of that. So putting your kind of marketing consultant hat on and that particular process, like how would you advise someone who’s hell bent in creating a community in the real sense of the world to do

Finding What Makes You Different (Without Overthinking It)

Joe Glover: this I think you have to go down to what makes you, I almost hesitate to use the word but unique, you know, and you know, with the caveat that nobody’s unique, unique, but you know, what makes you different. So in our example, it was the values, you know, of the event, the reason why we set it up. But for you, it might be that you’re the best people in the world for making widgets and, you know, there’s a prestige involved in being in part of that community or, you know, I think Microsoft do quite a good job of it with their MVP program as well, you know, and so their MVP program is like they reward and sort of encourage a sort of real community spirit around their various different programs. So they’ve got like a directory on their website of people who sort of like held up as examples of people that can help you out in various different cases. You know, in all of this stuff, I think you’ve just got to go back to what makes you unique, you unique. And if you’re doing this from a company perspective, then hopefully you’ve already done that exercise because, you know, you’re a marketer so you should be leaning into those kind of things anyway. If you’re doing it in a personal capacity, then it’s just about thinking about the things that you stand for as a human being. Do you, for you, it’s fighting, no bullshit. And I love that, you know, bullshit marketing, fuck that, you know, let’s, let’s do something different, you know, and for me, you know, for me it’s the type of thing which turns out some people off. But I speak about kindness and love a lot, you know, because I genuinely believe that that’s the way that we should be trying to live our lives. You know, it’s just looking after each other, you know, even though we are the marketing meetup, we are a group of people that come together to make each other better and that was the set of values. So going back to the question in an advisory capacity, I’d just be asking the question, what makes you unique? You know, and it’s whether what makes your company unique or what makes you unique as a human being. And really that’s the starting point for

Louis: me, that’s very tough to do. I know that people are very uncomfortable with that step because, yeah, it’s, it’s a big struggle. They could, they would come up with the same, the same bullshit.

Joe Glover: I think with that, you know, there’s also. That doesn’t need to be a limiting factor. So you can do this thing the first thing and then figure it out. So, for example, we speak about three values every event. Listen, say hello, and be positively lovely. And those only came about as an organic process about six months into the marketing meetup, running events every month. We operated without those values, without that uniqueness, verbalized for quite a long time. But had we not taken that first step of running the event, then we wouldn’t have got to that place. So I think it’s really, really important that when you’re growing a community and you’re making sure that you’re doing it, that gets to a place which people genuinely care about that. I think you do come to that place eventually. But if you don’t start in that place on day one, it’s also absolutely fine. You don’t need to be, like, kicking yourself and saying, you know, I’m crap, you know, and stuff like that. It’s a process and that’s absolutely fine.

Louis: Yeah, I’m nodding like an idiot. You can’t see it because you’re listening to the podcast. But that’s the key right there. That’s one of the major, major insights. You’re never going to have something that is perfect with like a radical differentiation, like strategy, and everything is perfect, feels unique until you fucking get started and do something. And it’s not going to be perfect, never will be. The key is exactly, as you said, is going to come from that you attract. And in marketing, that’s what it is. They gonna recognize a few things that they like about what you do that you have no clue about. They’re gonna start saying the same words, they’re gonna start remembering certain things that you say, and it’s gonna crystallize your own thinking. And this is why it’s so important to externalize your stuff, like whether it’s like writing on LinkedIn, writing a blog, doing podcasts, whatever. The feedback loop that you get there is so valuable. And just to. To talk briefly about, like me, for example, a small thing that just cracked me up at the start was, I don’t know where, why I started to talk about, to say, bonjour, Bonjour. At the start of every fucking episode. I just did. And I did it. Just. I don’t know why, just did it. And then people started to remember it, sending me emails with it. And then I was like, okay, I need to say that every time. That’s a small, tiny example. Doesn’t have anything to do with the fucking the podcast or the values. But I think it’s a good point going back to the three values you mentioned?

Joe Glover: Yeah, absolutely. Well, exactly the same happened for me. Exactly the same, you know, so I think you’re spot on. You notice these things when people have these conversations with you and you just keep on saying them, you lean into them. Spot on.

Louis: And that’s what marketing is all about. So you can’t just. You can’t have the perfect plan in your head. Like, you absolutely must get the fuck out of the building, literally, or not so literally at the minute, but you have to fucking put something out there, see how people react, adjust it, and you have to let go of the perfectionism, the maximizer mindset that makes you think it needs to be perfect before I ship it. Never going to be perfect purely because you need this exposure to other people to make it better as you go.

Joe Glover: Absolutely, mate. You know, Absolutely spot on. Yeah, I’m learning as we go.

Louis: All right, so that’s it then. It’s 30 minutes. We don’t need to talk more, I think.

Joe Glover: No, but, you know, I think also something that you did incredibly well in your session with us was you also confessed that there are days where it’s incredibly hard to actually leave the building. You know, and there are days where you don’t feel confident or you feel anxious or whatever it may be. And it’s also, you know, really, really important to note that, you know, some days you’re not going to have the strength to push yourself like that, and that’s also okay. But when you can just do it, because when you’re in that headspace, it’s a magical thing. And, like, literally the only thing holding you back is yourself in those circumstances. But if you don’t start it, you really have no idea where it’s going to end up.

Louis: Absolutely. And that’s the key. I mean, when you’re the founder of something, when you’re an entrepreneur or CEO, like, you are the DNA of the. Of the company, and you are kind of. You are. You are the person that needs to push through and you’re going to feel like shit sometimes. I mean, I think since I went on my own with everyone else, marketers as a business, not just as a podcast, I would say. I would. I would say around a third of my days were shitty days where I did almost focal work. But that’s the beauty of it. Now I can do focal.

Joe Glover: Yeah, you’ll probably have like, those other days which are like, to sort of agree with you and sort of share another experience. I think I only have 2 out of 10 days or 10 out of 10 days, I think I rarely, rarely have anything in between, you know, but almost 10 out of 10 days, you know, I probably get the work done of five people on those two hours. Exactly like you say, you know, you wake up out of bed and you don’t do anything.

Louis: Yeah. And you have to just have to recognize that and just be at peace with it. Don’t try to force it. And it’s fine. Just talk to someone else and fucking go watch Netflix and then go for a walk and then come back. So going back to this advising on creating a community. So the first step, just fucking look at, look in yourself and the type of things that you hate that you don’t like or that you love about specific stuff like the problems you’re suffering yourself. Ship something, see how it goes. Right. So then what’s next? What happens next once you have that done?

Joe Glover: So we’ve kind of, we’ve kind of touched upon this, but I think it’s. It’s really important to, to re. Emphasize it. And that is the sort of strategic aspect of things, which is, you know, what’s the tone of voice going to be? What’s the target market going to be? You know, I never actually personally put any goals around it, but if you’re doing this in a corporate context, you may choose to do goals and objectives as well. But I think. So the thing that has always stood us in a much better stead within anything, you know, and I include Covid as part of this, is that we had a really strong value set and we had very honest tone of voice. So for us, you know, it was always about looking after people and there was no shame in saying, we’re figuring this out, figuring this out as we go along. So I think if we’re going to translate this into a useful sort of piece of learning for other people, I think it’s just really important to know the reason why you’re doing things and how are you going to then communicate that to your community through your key messages. So this isn’t necessarily tactics at this stage, but this is like the consistent themes that you’re going to be putting across over the course of time. So for us, it was always the kindness angle was something that was really, really important. But the three things that we reiterated time and time again were listen, say hello and be positively lovely. And going back to your point about the things that people recall to you over the course of time that be positively, be positively lovely wasn’t a thing until people started saying it back to me. And Then it was like, okay, let’s, let’s keep that, you know, So I, I think from a strategic point of view, I think it’s just really, really important, you know, your target audience. And I think this is something that, you know, we could make our entire careers out of, going into businesses and saying, what’s your target market? And people sort of shrugging their shoulders and going, well, everyone. And then you go, well, it quite clearly isn’t everyone who are your target market? And like, who are the people that you can help the most? And that’s, that’s the way that I love to think about things. It’s not necessarily like, who’s your target market? Who do you need to nail to sort of like become your top 10 customers? It’s like, literally, who are the people that you can help the most? Who are the people that you are equipped with to, through your personality, through your life view, through your offering, who are you equipped to help improve the lives of the most? So target market values?

Who Can You Help the Most? The Target Market Question

Louis: And so I could guess, I mean, you know, that’s, that’s the way I do it. I’ve forgiven myself a long time ago for doing this. The reason why I cut you right there, because that’s a key, it’s a tiny little sentence, but to me, that’s the way you actually quote, unquote, pick a market. So who can you help the most? It might sound extremely simplistic, but that’s the fucking key. It’s not about what is the demographic, you know, what is the industry that you feel have the highest profit margin and therefore you need to be in it. Like the SaaS industry at the minute has huge profit margin. Every copywriters in the world want to work for SaaS companies. It’s about who can you help the most. Exactly. Who has the highest pain, who suffers the most, who can you help the most with the skills that you have, whether as a founder in the company. And it’s the intersection of those things, right? So when you think about it this way, marketing becomes very interesting because it starts from the very start of it, like the market, the problems that suffer from the pains they have, who suffer the most. And I’m just going to give you a quick example to illustrate it so people understand. I talked to Adele Revela a few years ago, at this stage was the CEO of the Biopersonal Institute. Don’t get me started on fake fucking institute names. But anyway, she’s a smart lady. And anyway, and she, she talked, she, she told this story about this accounting software company that they, that they helped a long time ago. And they interview people and their client list to understand, okay, the segment and to understand who, who would be the most important market segment. And they realized that there was one particular segment that was particularly in pain more than others because they were afraid of going to jail if they weren’t filing their taxes. While others, bigger companies that had an accounting team didn’t really give a shit. They knew that it would be done. So the pain wasn’t as much. Even though they needed the software, they didn’t need it as much than the companies who didn’t have accounting in house and were really afraid that, shit, if I don’t do that properly, I’m going to go end up in jail. And this right there to me is a huge, like a big summary of, of this small sentence that you described that is to me incredibly important. If you understand that, then things get a bit easier.

Joe Glover: Yeah, I love that. No, it’s spot on. And you can lean into that. That’s a real tension point as well, isn’t it? Don’t go to jail.

Louis: Yeah, without being sleazy. But exactly. Once you understand your target market that well and you have like a coherent segment that you feel shit. Actually they all seem to have this. They suffer from the same pain point. They don’t have the same necessary industry or the same roles, but they all, you know, have the same pain point, then you can use that in your marketing message. And exactly as you said, like it’s so easy to think of campaigns now. You don’t have to come up with a fucking message.

Joe Glover: No, I mean the message is there, you know, you have it. And I guess, you know, so that, that kind of goes back down to our conversation about market orientation as well. Because it depends if you’re starting from a place where you’re solving your own problem, in those instances the messages become super easy because you kind of. It’s not a way of like, I like to think about it too much because it feels quite selfish. But like, you know, you can always write the message that you would like to see yourself, you know, because you know the problem better than anyone else. In the context of working for a company or being solving a problem for a market that isn’t you, that’s a spot on way of doing it, you know, and you only find that out through speaking with people, you know, and actually, you know, observing what they do, where they do it, how they do it, using their language.

Louis: I actually struggle with that. Not not understanding others, but I actually struggle When I suffer from the problem myself, I sometimes struggle to externalize it to the point that other people understand. I always. I almost feel more comfortable. Yeah, I have a hint of a problem that I can see people suffering from, including myself, but I find it much easier for me to lean on other people and what they say rather than my thoughts.

Joe Glover: That’s interesting. Why do you think that is?

Louis: I don’t know. Because I’m French, I can’t speak English, probably. Maybe.

Joe Glover: Well, no, you know, but that. That’s a really interesting sort of marketing problem, in a sense, really, isn’t it? You know, that you. Because it probably isn’t the identification of the problem that is. Is the difficulty.

Louis: Is it.

Joe Glover: Is it a language thing which you.

Louis: I don’t know if it’s language per se, but I. To me, I mean, I personally believe that the laziest way to actually do marketing is to. To lean on other people. I don’t know. I think it’s easy to take a lot of things for granted, even though you know that consciously you shouldn’t, and to externalize your thoughts and your fears and whatever. But I find it much easier when I have, like, a few more people that say the same things in different ways. I can lean on that much easier than just my own thoughts. I mean, the podcast started with just me. I didn’t fucking ask anyone, like, whether you felt most marketing podcasts were bullshit or whatnot. So I suppose I did it this way.

Testing Messages and Finding Your Voice Through Feedback

Joe Glover: Yeah. Yeah.

Louis: I wouldn’t say it’s difficult, but it’s not as. I don’t consider it as easy as just talking to three other people. And they all said the same thing, and I just use their words.

Joe Glover: Well, we can use that as well, though, can’t you? Because, you know, I love the thought that you can use, you know, LinkedIn or Twitter as a test bed for these messages as well, you know, and you put something out into the world and it’s sort of quick, easy, and if people don’t resonate with it, they forget it within five minutes. But if it gets a lot of engagement, you’re like, yeah, that’s the message that works, and we can carry on with that, you know, and if that is the problem, then you can sort of test it in that way, I guess.

Louis: I’m going to give you an example of something that happened recently. You described. You mentioned it a few minutes ago when. When I talked at the marketing meetup, like one of the webinars, right at the end during the Q and A. I just, I Think I don’t know, you made me say it in a sense, or you asked the question because you knew or whatever. And I just, I just, I just said, you know, yeah, I feel like shit very regularly as well. Like, you know, just like, let’s be honest, obviously, you know, I took it for granted there and like, people loved it to hear that. So then I sent an email about it. I put a few LinkedIn messages about a few LinkedIn publications about it as a way to. Just to see what was going on. And yeah, I got a lot of people, A lot of people. And this topic of mental health in particularly for marketers and the confidence aspects, which is to me linked to the ability to do good marketing because if you don’t feel confident, you shut yourself off. You don’t do you copy what others are doing because you’re afraid of doing your own thing and whatnot. That’s a massive problem and I absolutely want to solve it soon. And I don’t know how exactly, but I know this is one. But that’s a very, very, to me, very good example of what we’re describing here. You ship something. Yesterday I talked about how I do organize my week and no one gave a shit, you know, Twitter, and no one gave a. Any wrong timing, whatever. But you can sense the response of the market by doing it quickly like that, right?

Joe Glover: 100, you know, and it was really quite amazing in that moment, actually. You know, in that particular session, you know, the comments lit up when you, when you sort of opened up like that. And I think there is a lesson here as well, which is when we’re building communities as well, is it’s about that. It’s about the humanity aspect of it. You know, people engage with people. You know, there isn’t actually a term that I hate more in marketing other than human to human marketing, because it’s like, what else would you be doing? You know, but. But the essence of it is true in a sense. You know, I mean, if people are forgetting that they’re marketing to humans, then there’s a really big problem there. But, you know, as human beings, we all share anxieties and, and lacks confidence and stuff like that. So I think what you did in that moment was that you were brave and you just spoke about it and, you know, you got the response that you did. So I think there’s a couple of things there. You know, first of all, there’s the anxiety confidence thing. None of us are superhuman. Secondly, there’s the testing of the messages, which, you know, really really worked. I saw you LinkedIn for the next couple of weeks as well afterwards and you know, there was some really, really sort of well engaged posts on that topic. I think that will become quite an important thing for you in the future, you know, and then in the context of building, I think there’s an honesty, there’s a transparency. I also hate this word, but authenticity, I mean, why wouldn’t you be authentic? You know, but, you know, just being, being, you know, valuing humanity amongst above any other thing in this process is, is literally. Well, in my experience at least, is the most important thing.

Louis: There is a few. I had a few conversations recently with people who feel like if they don’t use complex words, buzzwords, they. They feel, they feel like they sound stupid and people are not going to take them seriously. What do you say to that?

Joe Glover: I don’t know whether I have like a. A particularly strong reaction. I mean, I think I’m privileged. I think. I think I’m privileged to be in a position where I feel comfortable in, in that space personally, you know, but I think that’s a process, right? You know, and if you’re on your journey of becoming comfortable with yourself and what you stand for and using both words is a way for you to get comfortable, then, albeit, you know, it’s probably a good thing, I think we have to find the best solutions for ourselves at any one moment in time. That being said, it’s not something that I choose to engage with because I don’t feel like I need to use the word authentic to describe being myself necessarily because, you know, it’s just not required, you know, I don’t need to describe myself as authentic and I’m just a chap, you know, and stuff like that. So it’s a journey. Everyone’s on their own journey. And whatever stage you’re in at the moment, that’s okay. And if you’re at the buzzword stage, that’s okay. But I would probably be looking to strive for a place where buzzwords is not something you have to hide behind as well.

Louis: I had hit and shah on the podcast recently talking about value proposition and how to create, how to write something that people understand so that they buy from you at the end of the day. And he made a good point about buzzword specifically when it comes to trends in general, like, you know, big data, like a few years ago. What else did he mention? Gonna forget anyway? Those kind of industry trends that come and go. And he says be very careful picking words like that when you describe what you do, because every two years, you’re gonna have to change it and you’re gonna sound like it’s gonna sound outdated much faster. So he made a good point of when you use very simple words that can’t get out of fashion because you’re describing problems and describing very simple terms, that means complex things, in a sense, you avoid that problem. I hadn’t thought about that before.

Joe Glover: No, I love that. I. I love that. And I actually think it has a lot of relevance for this conversation as well. Because, you know, if, If. If I think about the situation that when. When Covid hit, you know, we, We. Because we identified ourselves as a community first and not an events company, then it was actually relatively easy to make a switch over to. To the virtual landscape and stuff like that. But had we identified ourselves as an events company, then it would have been very difficult. So the context of why that’s relevant for this is that you kind of take things back to the first principles, you know, the most important core value of whatever, anything is, you know, and. And rarely, that is a description of what your company does. And rarely is it a buzzword. You know, it’s. You know, those are descriptive terms for a core principle. So if you can lean on those core principles far more, I think you do allow yourself far more longevity, but also flexibility. And I wouldn’t say you make yourself bulletproof, but you certainly make yourself a lot more resilient in a marketplace that does change.

Louis: Yeah. And it doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t describe what you do. Like, if people put you in a category, let’s say you sell email marketing software. I’m not saying to remove that, but because people understand that as a category. But you can look at it from a historical standpoint and see, okay, email marketing is nowhere, is not going anywhere. And so you can lean on that as almost foundation. But be very careful of those trends that come and go that could actually. That could bite you in the ass.

Joe Glover: Yeah, no, it’s a really good point. I never really thought of that before, but I like that a lot.

Louis: Is there anything I didn’t ask you that you’d like to talk about? When it comes to building a community with a big C, I think there’s

Tactical Lessons: Data Ownership, Sponsorships, and Word of Mouth

Joe Glover: just like a big thing about tactics as well, which, you know, we’ve got a relatively short amount of time, so, you know, I won’t labor the point, but, you know, there’s a few lessons which I’d move through very quickly. So the first is that the point that our community sort of took off, so to speak, was when we started capturing data for ourselves. So we started owning, you know, the database rather than allowing it to be held in meetup.com so that was really, really important. So it’s just something if somebody was to use meet up to build a community from the start, that’s, that’s a drawback to be aware of. So we now hold like we’ve now got a newsletter, you know, which is really, really important to our business and allowed us to continue to operate. Secondly, I think there’s something really important about attribution. So when it comes to getting involved with sponsors or people paying or whatever, they’ve got to be aware that a community, a sponsorship relationship is going to be a long game. It’s not going to be something that turns around and drives 100 leads for you in a day. For that reason, when we have all our sponsor relationships, we always have like a minimum term involved and we always sell it on the basis of look, it’s going to be a top of funnel sort of activity. So I think that’s, that’s really, really important because these relationships with people who help, you know, quote unquote finance the community is really, really important to set their expectations that it’s a long term thing. If we switch that context to a commercial context. So you are working at, I don’t know, a widget company and they’re saying look, we’d like to start a community around our goods. Then I would suggest that you’re probably looking to build a community around stuff at the awareness stage or maybe like the retention or advocacy. I think it’s fairly rarely that you’re going to be driving people that like consideration or purchase. That doesn’t mean to say that you can’t do that. It’s just one important to note that that’s going to be a long sales cycle as well. So you’re actually much better at sort of targeting your activity on the day to day level, sort of helping people out and sort of getting them to tell their friends about it. And with that in mind, word of mouth is going to be your best friend. So do whatever you can do to encourage word of mouth activity as well. One thing that we did at one of the first events was that we printed out a bunch of tiny little business cards and, and it said I think you will really, really, really, really, really really like this the idea. And we gave three cards to every person who came along to the event and then we just asked them to give a card to each of These three people with our website address on, you know, so people could come to the next event. I think there’s points on the tactics about you get what you get out, what you put in. You know, I truly believe that if you lift the values that your community has then, or that you would like to see, then you get it back as well. So I think there’s something about humanity here. I think it’s really useful in a community context to have a human point of contact. So, you know, whether that’s Louis or Joe or James or whoever, you know, like, I think it’s just really important that people can see that human behind the thing because they’re engaging in it on that basis. They’re engaging as human beings first. So it’s important that you come that way first. And then the final point is that if you are a commercial enterprise and you are looking to start a community thing, you don’t necessarily need to call it your. The company name. You don’t need to call it the widget company. The community on the tools is a great example of a community that is run by. By a commercial enterprise. They’re run by someone called Electric House. The company, but on the tools is like a builder community and they’ve got a huge following on Facebook and stuff like that. And what they’ve done incredibly well is that they didn’t call it the Electric House builders community. They called it on the tools, which was something that would resonate with their community. So there’s a point there that when you go about sort of like naming and stuff like that, don’t feel like you need to. To name it after your company. Do it something which will resonate with the community and you can kind of like, if you have to get a commercial element out of things, then do it on sort of like as a secondary thing rather than the primary. I think you’re far more likely to see success in that way.

Louis: Yeah, very, very, very good tip. Thanks for mentioning that. I’m glad I asked you the question. Last question for you. I know you’re a bit on time, I just didn’t see the time. What are the top three resources you’d recommend people today?

Joe Glover: So I’ve spoken at length about one today. So, you know, I hope people take the time to check that out. But then obviously this podcast, like, they’re listening right now. But like, genuinely, mate, you’ve done an unbelievable job. Like, I hope you give yourself the chance to pat yourself on the back every so often because, like, you’re nodding along so Maybe you do, but, like, it’s been an invaluable resource. And I’d say this is one of the. The highest, like, the highest quality places which people can get marketing content anywhere. Honestly, like, it’s top of my marketing podcasts for good reason. Other ones, I am part of the Dave Gert Hart Marketing Group. You know, like, I like it. You know, it’s a. It’s a good space, so I’d recommend people check it out. Some people will like it, some people won’t. But, you know, for me, I do like it. So it’s a good space, particularly if you like copywriting. They really like copywriting in there. And then the final one is actually a far broader one, which is LinkedIn. So I spend far too much time on LinkedIn. But that being said, I think there’s just the groundswell of people who aren’t like, massive names but are providing really, really good content. So there’s people like a guy called John Asperian who does great stuff on how to be really good on LinkedIn. We’ve got Mary Owusu who does SEO. You’ve got the obvious ones, like, you know, Mark Ritson and Rory Sutherland, but then Mark Williams Cook is a guy that does SEO stuff. Ash Jones is a guy that does stuff about personal branding. You know, there’s like a real sort of, like, incredible bunch of folks out there who aren’t like the hugest names. They haven’t written the book, they haven’t got massive publications, but they’re putting out really, really good stuff. So I’d recommend checking out all those as well.

Louis: Yeah, thanks. Very good resources and thanks for your kind words, man. So, yeah, you didn’t even want to mention the name. The marketing meetup does. But please, if you’re listening to this, still check Joe out, check what he’s doing, because it’s nothing short of amazing and very, very good case study for you if you want to do something similar. Joe, once again, thanks so much for your time. Learned a lot from you. I know people will as well. Thanks for your generosity and even your authenticity, should I say? Yeah, you’re a very nice guy and just very easy to get along. And which is why we are like an hour interviewing. Well, we should have stopped 10 minutes ago.

Joe Glover: So thank you, mate. Thank you for having me. And thank you for listening, everyone.

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