The Viagra for Lifeless B2B Messaging: How to Keep Your Clients Satisfied & Coming Back for More

The Difference Between Messaging and Copywriting

Diane: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Louis: So isn’t messaging just copywriting?

Diane: Great start. No is the short answer. So, yeah, it’s a good place to start because there is a lot of ambiguity around messaging right now, and I think that’s the big kind of elephant in the room that many people confuse messaging with copywriting. I make a very clear distinction that put simply, messaging is what you say about your product, your service, your solution, your company. And messaging and. Sorry, and copywriting is how you say that message.

Louis: So messaging is the how and copywriting is the what.

Diane: No, messaging is the what and copywriting is the how. So messaging is really kind of it’s. It’s all about identifying the most important things about your company, your product, and why that matters to your audience. So your messaging is going to be informed by your unique positioning in the market. Right? Your company mission, your goals, your values, the value that you provide to your customers. And once you have that core messaging, then it can be told in different ways. Right. So depending on the channel, the audience. And that’s really where copywriting brings your messaging to life.

Louis: Okay, so in terms of orders, it’s roughly positioning messaging, copywriting.

Diane: Yeah, exactly. And I mean, I like to think about the kind of messaging strategy in that way that it’s like this triangle. Like, at the base, you have your company, your strategy. Above that you have your positioning. Above that, you have your messaging, and then at the top, you have, like, the copy and the words on page.

Louis: Okay, what do you do if you come across a company that has a shitty positioning and you have to work with them?

Diane: I generally don’t. So, I mean, for the work that I do specifically, there are a couple of caveats. Right. So I want to work with a company that has established fairly clear kind of product market fits and has a pretty solid understanding of, like, who their target customers are. Because it kind of goes without saying that it’s going to be very hard to know what to talk about and what value to put in your messaging if you don’t even know kind of where you sit and who you’re speaking to. So I would say as a kind of a caveat, a precursor to this whole conversation is that this whole process of kind of redefining your messaging strategy, finding message market fit, comes after having found, like, product market fit as well.

Louis: Gotcha. So obviously we’re not gonna cover that today. That’s not the point of this discussion. So we’ll start with, like, we’ll talk about messaging, message market fit, and stuff. But isn’t messaging just as easy as using your customer’s words?

Diane: Oh, you’re really trying to poke. Poke the bear today. So, yes and no. Customer research, and, you know, I’ll kind of walk through my process. Customer research is a huge part of creating a message messaging strategy that resonates. Message market fit is all about how much your message actually resonates with your prospects, with your customers, how it lands. Um, and obviously to do that, you do need to go out and speak to your customers and kind of bring in their language and use their words, but it’s not enough to just pull words out or Louis said, yeah, this, you know, I’m, like, really struggling and frustrated. Frustrated with my kind of project management tool and then just slapping that word on the page. You have to kind of go a layer deeper and actually kind of analyze through a bit more of a critical

Signs Your Messaging Is Shit

Louis: lens what are the signs that a company’s messaging is kind of shit?

Diane: There are quite a few. Firstly, I would say it’s quite hard to actually know, or it’s quite hard to kind of see the signs, the telltale signs. As a founder, as a marketer, I’ve noticed myself this kind of syndrome which I call like the founder funk that a lot of companies I work with, they’re kind of too close to their product, right? Like they’re in the trenches, they’re working on this product, they know everything inside and out. And it’s almost like, you know, when you’re inside the jar, you can’t see their label. Right. So it is quite hard to actually see those signs. So if you, before we kind of walk through why your messaging is shit, I just want to kind of give people that peace of mind that it is quite hard to actually notice these yourself. A couple of telltale signs I guess are. Well, one that prospects don’t get what you do really simply, that’s like a very clear sign of unclear, vague messaging, which could be a symptom of, hey, you’re going really too broad, too big with your messaging, trying to speak to everyone. You know, hey, we are the tool for executives, managers, marketers, right? And so that leads to very kind of clear, vague, irrelevant messaging. Another telltale sign that your messaging isn’t very good is that like prospects are confused. Right. Often that’s a sign of shoving too many messages down prospects and customers throats. You know, really strong messaging is not only clear and easy to understand, but has very kind of singular focus. I think there’s like this kind of concept like the Miller’s Law, which is that, you know, people can only retain. I think it’s seven. Is it seven messages at one time? I kind of. Yeah. So I take this further. I have like Diane’s law, which is people can only retain like 2, 2 to 3. You know, if you think of any, any company or any website that you visit, you have to think of a context that people are thinking about what they’re making for dinner later. They’re like planning, they’re scanning like five other competitors and then you’re shoving like seven, six messages down their throat and they’re only going to retain one. Like, what is that? And not having a very clear focus that often leads prospects to kind of be confused. Um, and I think another key telltale symptom that your messaging is not really hitting the spot is that prospectors aren’t either aren’t interested or can’t really see why your product is suitable or relevant for them. So for example, you know this could be that your messaging is very self serving. Right. So it’s all me, me, me focusing on the product but actually forgetting about the audience and forgetting to translate your messaging into the benefits for your customers. And I think one of the key things, one of the key kind of tenets of strong messaging is remembering that your customers don’t care about you as a company or a brand. They care about themselves, they care about how you can help them. And so good messaging, because let’s talk about the flip and not just Rabbit’s messaging. Good messaging is relevant. It’s created around the needs of your audience and it’s kind of based on not just you and your vision, but also like research as well.

Louis: Great, thank you. So three telltale signs. They don’t get what you do, they are confused or they can’t see why it’s for them. Right. Which I think is a good summary. Just as a side note, I think for folks listening to you speak, they’ll realize how you’ve position what you’re saying in a way that people understand pretty fast. So you talked about the founder funk as a very quick way to say it’s not your fault, founders, it’s not your fault if your messaging is shit. You’re just too close to a product and therefore I’m not pointing the finger at you. It’s just normal that you can’t see, you can’t read the label inside the jar. And this is a very, very strong and good way to get people on your side while talking about pain points, needs and stuff without making them feel guilty. Because you can actually trigger some pretty strong response if you just say, hey, it’s your fault, you idiot. You know, so I just wanted to

Diane: say that, yeah, I mean I’m, I guess I’m trying to not just talk the talk, but walk the walk as well. So you know this, we’re talking about messaging and having a clear kind of narrative or context in which your business operates is a key part of having a strong messaging strategy. And so, you know, not just pointing the blame at like what you’re doing is rubbish. My, my service or my product is the solution, but it’s like taking a step back and thinking a lot, a lot bigger than that as well.

Louis: And you’re also wearing a hoodie with a French word on it. So taking all the bottles.

Diane: Yeah, you like it? Jar Eve?

Louis: Yeah. So for, for those listening to the audio version, I’m sorry, you can’t see it. You have to go on YouTube to find it.

Diane: Well, I couldn’t speak to Mr. Bourjo Bajor and not have anything French on. So in honor of you.

What Is Message-Market Fit

Louis: In honor of me. Okay. So what is message market fit?

Diane: Yeah, great question. Well, so let’s assume that you have a kind of basic understanding of product market fit, of having, you know, a product that has a space in the market that it’s has you have paying customers and that you kind of solving a need. Once you have product market fit, the logical next step is, well, getting message market fit. Right. Your product can only take you so far. Right. You can have the best product in the world, but if you can’t cut through the noise, it doesn’t matter. So message market fit is all about clearly articulating the value, the uniqueness of your product in a clear, relevant and differentiated way. On the flip side, if you don’t have message market fit, like I said, a great product will get you pretty far. Like, I’ve worked with a number of companies and clients who they, they’ve come and hired me after 10 years in business, 10, 15 years in business. Like, they’re doing pretty well. They have a solid customer base, they have a great product. Like, it’s awesome, it’s solving a real pain. But then they reach a point, this kind of glass ceiling, which is, okay, we’re getting feedback that people don’t know why to pick us over someone else. We’re not clearly expressing what makes us different for someone else. We’re not clearly articulating our value. And so that’s really where finding message market fit comes into play. With the right messaging, marketing just becomes a lot easier. Right?

Louis: Absolutely. Yeah. So those companies then, that, that would mean that reaching the glass ceiling, what they tend to do before is they probably tend to sell directly, right? They maybe have sales, a sales team, and those people are able to then modify what they say to each prospect to fit their situation. So it gets, it’s easier, you know, but when it comes to scaling, you know, when it comes to, like, how do we do that at scale, it’s when I think the issues come in. Right?

Diane: Yeah, exactly. I think that’s a, that’s a great example that, you know, I don’t think it’s always just about how, how you sell or whether it’s kind of sales led or product led or whatever. It’s, it’s often, I Guess just kind of rely sometimes a bit of reliance as well on your product. That can be one avenue that, yes, okay, we have a great sales team, or this is all through the founder or whatever. But. But beyond that, it’s kind of losing sight of why did we start this in the first place? What makes us different? And how can we kind of be memorable and stand out against kind of all of this competition? Because I think that’s the key piece here is the context that right now, in whatever industry you work in, there have, like, never been more companies and brands like to choose from than there are now. So, like, why you? And I think that’s an important piece, that every single market is getting more saturated. Even if I just think, okay, we’re an SEO agency, cool. Like, there are more SEO agencies I could pick from than like stars in the sky. I don’t know why I chose the example. I’m not an astronomer. Maybe there are more, but it’s not going into that. Yeah. So, you know, it’s like, well, how do you. How do you articulate your unique and differentiated value in a very clear way that’s relevant to your particular customer base or group of people that you serve

Louis: in order to stand the fuck out? Not just stand out.

Diane: Exactly.

Louis: So I just might add one thing to what you said before. I’m just thinking about it now. I’m looking at my notes. So, yes, it’s the messaging is what you say, copywriting is how you say it. I also believe that there’s a third component that is very important to look at is by whom, who is saying it.

Diane: Right.

Louis: Which leads to the authority bias and the fact that. So it’s important also to realize that your message can be transported and used by others like quote, unquote, influencers, experts, colleagues, clients, and stuff like that. So paying attention to who’s gonna say it as well makes a lot, like, could change the impact entirely. Someone who’s not known versus someone who’s trusted, et cetera, et cetera. Before we go into the traditional step by step methods, you said to me before we started recording that you listened to 80% of the episode. So. Thank you. Can you give me maybe one example of a company that has outstanding messaging, you know, that you really, like, come back to all the time saying, you know, they fucking nail it.

Outstanding Messaging Examples

Diane: Yeah, so I guess that there are quite a few. I don’t, I don’t know if there’s any company that I always come back to. So within, like the kind of tech space I know. Well, let’s think of a few other examples as well. But I work primarily with B2B and tech and SaaS companies and I think that within the email space there are a couple of players that really, really stick out. Superhuman and hey are both very, very interesting case studies of companies that have very clear, relevant, differentiated messaging in a very saturated category as well. So Superhuman has very mission led messaging. Like it’s, it’s not actually the most user focused. They kind of go against a few conversion copywriting principles and they do talk a little bit about their mission and what they’re all about a bit more, but they have this very clear, singular focus which is like we are the fastest, right? That’s the one needs that we’re going after. That’s what we solve the fastest. Email. If email is draining you, it’s, it’s a drain on your time. We’re the ones who come in and solve that and I think that they really stand out.

Louis: So let me just read because I’m on the website just for context, I

Diane: haven’t checked it recently actually the headline

Louis: says the fastest email experience ever made. So here clearly they are just narrowing down in one very specific need which is improving the speeds at which you are able to receive, send emails and basically go through much faster. And that’s it, right? That’s the only thing they say. And then as you said after they say, we rebuild the inbox from the ground up to make you brilliant at what you do. We specifically design it for those who, those of you who aren’t the best. Superhuman is gorgeous, blazingly fast and comes with advanced features that make you feel superhuman. So yeah, that’s a great example.

Diane: Yeah, exactly. And I think so. Any good examples that come to my mind are always companies that are leading with a strong story, a strong strategic narrative, a clear point of view, a quite relevant positioning for their offer. Now that is very extreme. If I out of nowhere was going to start an email service provider, I think that would be very bold, maybe pretentious messaging to lead with without any kind of backing it up. But also what you spoke about was the who, right? So who has created Superhuman and that the part of the founder story as well kind of sort of brings its rears its head as well. And the other one, sticking with email because hopefully, I guess all marketers use email. So it’s a relevant example is hey, like hey, hey. Email by like the founders of Basecamp. They have very interesting messaging again because it’s a very strong strategic point of view, which is the kind of classic email was broken. It was crap. This is why it’s crap. We’re coming in and this is why we’re better. And they’re not really leading with this now, but they were taking on the big dogs. It was a bit of a kind of David and Goliath, like taking down the giant anti positioning against Gmail when they first launched. Now they don’t need to rely on that message as much, but that was a very. I think that was a very kind of interesting messaging strategy as well. And just the kind of. The way that they bring that to life through copywriting techniques as well is very unique and memorable.

Louis: So, yeah, their headline right now is Email’s New heyday. And then, as you said, email sucked for years. Not anymore. We fixed it. His fresh approach transforms the email into something you want to use, not something you’re forced to deal with, which is very, very, you know, very, very similar to superhuman in terms of fighting against something. But, you know, slightly different approach to it. Definitely different way to say it. Way more geared toward the user with testimonials all over the homepage and stuff. So. And then there is the story with the signature of the founder. Again, the who is important here, definitely, because if someone had come out with that hey thing without having the history that Basecamp has and the founders, I don’t think it could have gone anywhere.

Diane: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So all of these pieces and these building blocks put together, that’s what makes a very strong messaging strategy.

Louis: Anything any other companions that comes to mind?

Diane: I mean, a big classic example that I always reference is Patagonia. Quite an obvious one, but for obvious reasons like that, they come to mind because they have a very clear. And again, this is more of a B2Z example. They have a very clear story and mission, what they’re all about, which is kind of giving back to the planet. They actually act on what they say as well, which is really important, because building a messaging strategy, you’re not just kind of plucking it out of thin air. Like I mentioned earlier on, your messaging strategy is informed by not only the value that you’re delivering for your customers, but also the kind of change that you’re trying to make and your positioning in the market and who you want to be. And so all of their messaging is very, very interesting. I mean, there was a. Was it two years ago or a couple of years ago, around Christmas, they changed their homepage headline to Give a Damn and it was Don’t. The whole kind of campaign was Don’t Buy anything new for Christmas just like, like regift or give back or don’t buy anything from us at Christmas. Which is like a huge and a very bold stance for like an E commerce or retail company to take. And you can only use such bold messaging if you actually have a bold mission or like stance. Right. I think they’re a great example as well.

Louis: So there’s one I just love to come to which is Karen’s Diner, which is a. Actually I’m not going to explain what it is. I’m just going to read the headline. Great burgers and very rude service. Get ready to leave out your Karen dreams. We hate good service. Rated one star by us. This will be not. This will. This will be the most fun you’ve had eating burgers ever. And so they introduced the concept. So yeah, it’s a chain of restaurant where the waiters and waitresses are insulting people and it’s really fucking fun to see. And they are going viral many, many times over on TikTok and whenever because it’s really fun actually. So I love this kind of stuff. But as you said, you can’t really untangle positioning the mission or whatever else you want to call it with messaging. Right. Like it really goes on in hand. If you have a good one then it gets easier. So I guess we can start talking about this. So let’s imagine we are pretty much in the sweet spot of the type of companies that we need to kind of assess their message market fit and start improving the messaging. So they might be founder led as you said before, they might feel this kind of founder funk. I let you kind of pick the scenario and then we can go through a, a little step by step of how we would help them or how you would help them.

Diane: Sure, yeah. So you want to kind of take an example or just kind of dive

Louis: into fictional or real or whatever like just to illustrate the steps so you know the typical company, the typical situation they are in. So we can really pick something that just fits.

Diane: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean, so the kind of companies that I work with, like I said, there are a couple of assumptions you need to make that you have pretty clear product market fit, you have paying customers, you have a kind of solid idea as to who your target customers are. That’s like the foundation for then going through and kind of building out a messaging strategy. I think I made an example of a company that I worked with last year. I worked with a kind of UK based tech company. They were a digital asset management tool which is not Something that everyone knows or is aware of, but it’s this kind of place to kind of store and search and collaborate on your like visual assets. Right. So all of the images that you have, maybe for an E commerce company, and you want to be able to kind of browse and publish them. And they came to me really kind of struggling with separating one company from, from like another brand that they had and really kind of figuring out how to differentiate, how to actually pull their differentiators to the front of their messaging and how to kind of clearly explain what they do in quite a, kind of a tricky industry. So maybe that would be a good example.

Step 1: Document and Evaluate Your Current Messaging

Louis: Absolutely. Great example. So what did you do first?

Diane: Yeah. So step one is document and evaluate your existing messaging and your existing beliefs. Right. Okay, so that’s the, really, the place that we want to start is by taking a look at your current messaging strategy. We want to get a handle on what’s working, what’s not working, what are the inconsistencies? Are we clear on our story? Is everyone telling a different story? What are the points of friction, the opportunities, and what do we want to be saying? So obviously this is going to look different for different companies, but when you’re looking at finding message market fit and creating a messaging strategy, you really need to have a clear point of departure and the starting point has to be that internal compass. So it starts by documenting where you are to give yourself a kind of benchmark to evaluate against. And the other important thing to bear in mind here is that you’re not reinventing the wheel. Right. Particularly when I come in, I’m facilitating this process, but I’m not coming in and saying you do something different. I’m just trying to find a way to put into words what you already do.

Louis: Great. Okay, so I’ve taken notes. I’m not looking at you all the time because I’m actually taking notes. Yeah. Believe it or not, I’m listening. Which is nuts for an interview.

Diane: It is.

Louis: So step one, evaluate your messaging. Right. What’s working, what’s not working? Any point of friction. And it’s about not reinventing the wheel. Now you know me, how do you do that? Like specifically. Right. And it doesn’t mean necessarily with that specific client, but like, you know, for people listening, how did you actually do this?

Diane: Yeah, sure. So I guess one point to mention as well is, well, before we say how is who, like who is there who should be involved in this? So key, the key stakeholders for me are like, who is in charge of the messaging? It’s your, your key like company stakeholders. So the founder, founders, CEO, head of, depending on the size of your company, maybe is the head of growth, the head of product or the head of like customer service. But you want to have those key like let’s say C Suite or founders. Sometimes I’ve done this, this project just with the founder in this particular place. Case it was the founder and CEO and the head of product, like product marketing. So that’s, that’s the key thing because you have often have a lack of consistency within a team. Often that’s one of the outcomes that a company wants is to get to tell this consistent story across the board. So you have to have the right people and then how is working through like a series of evaluative questions. So the method that I use is that starting one with a questionnaire, asking questions about your current messaging strategy and then following that up with an in person discussion or brainstorm that I facilitate so that we can kind of work through those answers and discuss them and find out where we’re at right now.

Louis: What would be the top three questions in your questionnaire?

Diane: So I think it’s a bit, it’s easier to kind of work through the themes rather than the existing questions because the questions that I will always ask need to cover one, questions about the company and brand, like philosophy and the vision. So why you exist? What’s the kind of change that you’re, you’re trying to make? So really the kind of existential. Oh, I can’t pronounce that. The existential questions that you should be able to answer pretty easily and if you like can’t, then that’s already like a bit of a challenge. Number one, questions around like your positioning, right? Your story. What key problems do you solve? What are you positioned against? A great question I love to ask at this point is what do you hate in your industry? And often all of those key stakeholders like hate something very specific like yours is very clearly fighting marketing bullshit. Right? That’s very obvious that what you’re positioning yourself against and that’s a great question to ask. Also getting an understanding about your, your customers. Do we have a strong understanding of our customers? So not getting super deep. But do we know their top three challenges, the fears? What are the key obstacles to saying yes, do we understand the triggers? And then I also ask a few questions about the kind of brand and voice and how are we coming across now? How do we wish we were coming across? So it sounds very extensive. It’s not crazy. We just want to Get a baseline understanding across those areas. Particularly for me, because as an external facilitator, I also need to get up to speed on what’s working, what’s not. You, internally, as a team is a very useful exercise to kind of critically evaluate where you’re at. And I also like to split this out into like written before a discussion, because I just think thinking this through, having a bit of time allows you to kind of evaluate a bit more critically and it gets everyone involved. It kind of gets get the buy in as well, which is really important at this stage.

Louis: Yeah, agreed. Completely. What do you hate about the industry? Is my favorite question of all time. The cliche question. Definitely. Very good. Okay, so if we are in a situation where we don’t hire consultants and we need to do that internally, how does one kind of get into the meaty answers, like, what triggers them to buy and all their fears and obstacles, like, what do you recommend then?

Diane: At this stage, I think the important part is not. It’s not overthinking it. Like, at this stage we’re just evaluating, like, what are our beliefs, what do we think? And if you are a founder, if you are the sole marketer, like, you should have a baseline understanding or a baseline reaction and answer to these questions. They’re in later steps. Don’t want to get ahead of myself. Probably you’ve guessed there’s going to be a bit of research involved. So don’t get too stuck here. Just answer like, what do we think? Because it’s really important to have this baseline to kind of return back to and say, okay, this is what we thought, this is the reality, and then what the outcome will be. But yeah, cool.

Louis: So what’s the next step? We have that. We have the data, we have the lay of the land, the audit. Oh, by the way, now before we go into the next thing, you said what’s not working? Right? Like identifying what’s working, what’s not working. How does. How do you do that?

Diane: Yeah, so when I say what’s not working, I usually mean I think it’s a bit easier because when I’m working with a company, it’s one of the first questions I’m going to ask you is like, why, why do you want to evaluate your messaging strategy? And usually it will come from a different place. So it could be that, for example, we’re losing a bunch of clients, we’re using a bunch of customers because they still going to a key competitor and they can’t see, like why they would choose us. I think that’s really about like what are your core goals or what is the, what’s the key outcome for you? Or for some companies or for, in this example it could be that like internally we’re just, we’re just not aligned. We’re all set like saying a different thing. We’re not clear on the value. So I think when you say kind of what, what’s working, what’s, what’s not working, just answer about the stage that you’re in right now and what’s the problem that you’re, you’re trying to solve.

Louis: Yeah, I think it goes back to what you were saying earlier about the, the issues with wrong messaging. Right. Like people don’t get what you do, they get confused, they don’t, they don’t think it’s for them. And yes, typically it’s like when they’re like this, when they are like, you know, they really are in pain because as you said, customers lose, are going to a competitor. They get questions all the time about what the fuck are you doing or do you do all of that. So we covered that. So that’s, we can go to step two, I suppose. Yes. So then we have the audit. What do we do?

Step 2: Voice of Customer Research

Diane: Awesome. So next, the first step was looking internally. Right. It was just evaluating from us. The next two steps are about externally kind of going out and validating in the market. So step two is find out what your customers are saying. Right. So this is a really important step. I know everyone says speak to your customers, speak to your customers. Sure. But we’re really, what we’re trying to do in this phase is actually listen and really understand. So what you want to do is perform voice of customer research. So the voice of customer is really just the way that your customer talks about your product or service. And so through voice of customer research, what we’re trying to do is discover your customers wants, their needs, their emotions, the way that they express this and all with the express purpose of providing the most value in our messaging. Right. There’s this quote that I, that I love from Robert Collier. I think he’s an author of an OG copywriter from like early 1900s, but he said like when you’re trying to sell, you need to join the conversation in the customer’s mind. I think it’s been like misattributed a bunch of times to like loads of other people. But this is really important now because doing voice of customer research, what we’re trying to do is join that conversation in your customers heads so that we can Use that to inform our messaging. So yeah. So how is going to be your next question? Right, Louis?

Louis: Okay, do you want me to leave you and you finish? 20 minutes left.

Diane: Interview myself How? Jump on a call, Right? You have to jump on a video call, preferably, please, not just phone call. Face to face conversations have so much more impact. You can also tap into kind of visual cues, build better rapport, because you’re going to be asking a lot of kind of deep and emotional questions. So have a conversation with your customers. And then what I’m doing is looking for six key things, like working through one, asking questions around pains and like their problems. Right. So understanding the pains, the frustrations, why were they looking for a solution? How were they doing things before working with you? When did they realize it was not working? So all of that kind of before. You also want to tap into the decision making process and those kind of triggers. So questions around what triggered them to take action? Or like, why? The third thing is looking out for objections and hesitations. So those kind of points of resistance, those fears. The great question there is like, what almost stopped you from buying X or working with us? The next thing is needs, desires. So here you’re really listening out for those kind of emotional drivers, like what them, what set them off in search for an answer, like, what was the key need? The next thing is the key benefits. Right. So benefits, results, outcomes, whatever you want to call this. This piece is language around the transformation. Right. So this kind of works in order. So before decision making, during, now we want to ask questions about after. If we’re talking to current customers, hopefully they are getting value from your product or from your service. So what can you do now that you couldn’t do before, for example, as a question. And then the sixth and final key area or theme that I really want to unpack in this kind of customer conversation is moments of delight and value. And that’s really important. I want to unpack the highlights, like, what are the things that they appreciate? What are the things that, what are the differentiators that your customers see or that, you know, they think that make you different? And that’s a really key piece, particularly for messaging. Because what’s important to remember is that this conversation is not just questions about your product. It’s not just like, which feature do you love? No, it’s understanding the mindset of your customers and that whole process of looking for a solution, like you’re solving a problem and getting value from it.

How to Spot Emotions in Customer Interviews

Louis: How do you spot emotions when people talk to you?

Diane: So Great question. I guess a couple of different ways. One, purely the language, the language that is used, you’re going to spot sort of descriptive, descriptive language, adjectives, kind of a little emotional triggers. And also you can, if you’re on video, kind of tap into emotional, like visual cues as well. But usually it’s those kind of just a bunch of adjectives. Right. If I’m saying I was frustrated by X, then that’s a clear indication that there’s an emotion. But I think to really make sure that you tap into emotion, the key thing that I like to do is follow up questions. So, you know, I have a script, I have a list of so many questions that I always go into customer conversations with. I’m not one of those people who likes to just go with the flow because I’ve got a goal. Like I want to learn X, Y and Z. So I want to go in with a framework and a strategy. But the most important part is not necessarily the question I ask, it’s the follow up. So, so if you give me a simple answer, let’s say, let’s go back to this example that we’re talking about, right? Which was a kind of like visual assets, how you managing your, let’s say all of your different, like your podcast covers or in the example that I was talking about this kind of digital asset tool. So I’m speaking to a client and saying, well, how are you managing like your visual assets now? Like, where are they? What’s the problem? And they say, well, we’re using like Google Drive. Or they’re then in this other place and I can’t find the picture that I’m looking for because the name, the file of the name file is like xz png and they say like, oh, that was a mess. And then I would follow up and say, okay, what was frustrating about that? Or I’d follow up and say, what do you mean by a mess? Or what did that mess look like? And then usually that follow up question allows the interlocutor, like the interviewee to kind of unpack in a more descriptive and like flowery and expressive way.

Louis: Right? So if people curse, if people move a lot and they really get animated, right? Like they really relive it and it annoys them. It’s always a good way to double down on. So I don’t know how many steps you have in the process. Okay, so there’s one thing in particular that I’d like to dive in. Maybe we can like cover the steps briefly in case it’s you know, later on. But I’ve never ever come across a messaging map or like a, basically a document, a one page document or two page document, simple document that highlights your messaging. That made sense to me. Right? So I found many, many templates, but they all, they are either too shallow or they’re just way too specific. And they focus on Personas and bullshit that, you know, doesn’t have any, anything to do with why people actually bought. So what I’m curious about is how do you put together a messaging, you know, the structured way that you put it together so that the, so that whoever else gets the, you know, the insight, like how do you function when it comes to that?

Building Your Messaging Framework Structure

Diane: Yeah, that’s a great question. So that’s the final step, I guess. So like let me just, let’s kind of list these out high level so then we can kind of break down the structure and if we want to, we can go back. Because again, this is not rocket science. Obviously sometimes it can, it can feel a little bit overwhelming, but it really isn’t like I’m trying to break this down as simply as possible. So step one, we said document, evaluate the current state of your messaging, where you are. Step two, go out and find out what your customers are saying. Right. Then step three, go and find out what your competitors are saying. So I can unpack that a lot more. But really there it’s like perform a competitive messaging audit. Find out what is being said about the offers, how they’re saying it, what’s not being said. And the purpose of that is also not to sound the same, but also to kind of find opportunities and roads that haven’t been taken, to kind of place yourself. So we can unpack that a bit more. Step four is obviously now you have all this stuff, you’ve had these conversations, you have these themes that’s really filtering your findings, right. So really narrowing down your messaging focus, creating a kind of prioritized messaging map. I don’t want to really name things here because everyone on the planet has a different name for different stuff. So it gets quite complicated. But just you want to kind of map out the themes, the priorities, the top values that came up in this research. Right. And then that final step, and that’s what you were talking about there is like, how do you put this together? And this is kind of the way I like to look at this, is kind of laying out messaging building blocks. It’s almost like you’re putting pieces of a puzzle together. So a messaging strategy is you’re kind of working through the layers and then laying each building block on top. I like to think of your messaging strategy a bit like an iceberg, right. So you have this little bit sticking out of the top that is what people can see and then you have this huge kind of iceberg underneath that no one can see. And that’s a little bit like your messaging because we’ve talked about the mission and why you exist, we’ve talked about your positioning and kind of where you, where you sit in the market. And then obviously you need to have like messaging that will end up on the page and all of that underneath stuff is still part of your messaging strategy. You still need to work it out in order to have clear messaging on the page. So if we look at a kind of triangle at the bottom, we have. Well, I kind of split the messaging strategy into kind of four key areas. And if you kind of picture picture layers, the bottom layer is the messaging around why, why we exist, why we do what we do. The layer on top is who we are, the layer on top of that is what we do. And then the layer on top of that is how we say it. Right. So that’s kind of how I build out my messaging framework and put each of those blocks into kind of what I call a messaging playbook. Right. So that can take whatever format, whether that’s a slide deck, whether that’s a Google Doc, whether that’s in a notion table, like the format doesn’t really matter. What we’re doing is just creating building blocks and messaging elements that then form the basis of your messaging and that you can use to create kind of copy that resonates. So I can kind of go through those elements.

Louis: So the way we exist, who we are, what we do, I think is pretty self explanatory. And you know, I think it’s really something that, you know, obviously they need to work through. But I don’t think that’s the most groundbreaking thing. However, the last one is I think where probably the meat of it, the details is where it’s at. Right. The how we say it is messaging. So what do you typically put in there? Like how do you typically transform all of those insights into this kind of, this is how we’re going to say it.

Diane: Yeah. So the key, if we’ve got those key pieces underneath. So we’ve got, we know the foundational brand company layer, we know we have a clear, a mission purpose, we know the goals, what we’re trying to achieve, the whole, the positioning. And again this is still all part of the work that I do with my clients is getting clear on this. So that’s why I’m kind of like drilling this home your. And you kind of use different frameworks along the way. So for example, the who is really the context and like the strategic narrative and the story. That’s a key part of your messaging strategy. So before jumping ahead to how have you got, have you pulled out a clear story that kind of guides your, your business activity? And I use other frameworks to build this as well. So for example, I think you’ve had Andy Raskin on the show a while ago. He has a great framework for building out a strategic narrative. And if you go back to that first step, which was what do we think we’re all about? What were we trying to position ourselves against? And then we map that against what were our customers saying? What are the things that they value? What do they hate about the competitors? That helps you put this together in a very clear story. On top of that, the what? This is building out a clear value proposition, right? So the value that you bring to your customers, how you solve their needs, why they should care. Again, this phase is going back to what did we say? What did we think? What are the key values and what’s come up in the research. And now blending those together and making sure that we have a clear value proposition that is both relevant, is differentiated based on all of the research and the findings, but also maps back to what we’re all about. And then the layer that you’re asking me about is, okay, how, how do we express that? Now the key parts that I always want to deliver Here are 1. Messaging pillars, right? We have to have clear messaging pillars so that we can have a singular, a kind of singular messaging strategy. If we go back to the example of Superhuman, Superhuman would not have been an example that would have come to mind if they were the fastest, smartest, most efficient, most beautiful, most everything tool out there. But they’ve honed in on a very core, a core messaging pillar that no doubt is also reflected in the value that they deliver for their customers. So yeah, sure.

Louis: But by pillar, do you mean priorities? Like, you know, the. This is the number one thing we talk about everywhere. Like, how do you define that?

Diane: Yeah, exactly. So I kind of define a messaging pillar as the core concept or core theme that you own in your customers minds. So the key themes that set you apart. And again, this goes back to partly answering that question in the beginning. What are we all about? What do we want to own? And then checking that against the market and the research, can we own this space? And what feedback are we getting from our customers? So if we. To maybe make this a bit more practical, let’s go back to that example of this digital asset management tool that I work with. Great company is called, called Dash, based out of the uk. And some of the pillars that we pulled together were the concept of being a centralized home, like a centralized hub for your visual images. Like this concept and this idea of being a home. Now that was really interesting because it was something that was being reflected back in the messages and the language that their customers were using. It also was an opportunity that in terms of what their competitors were saying, very few competitors were speaking about this tool in that way, about something. A place where your visual assets live. Right. So this idea of like a home was a very key messaging pillar that then they could build out core messages on top of.

Louis: Nice. Great example. So, yeah, I’m glad I’ve asked that because it’s always something I’ve been wondering about. It’s very difficult to find anything online that is. That is worth. It’s old. So in terms of. I know we’re backtracking here, so we’re at step five, but I think it was good to actually get to the end result before we go to the. How do you get there?

Diane: Sure.

Filtering Findings and Creating Messaging Pillars

Louis: Because you talked about filtering your findings. So that was step four. Right. How do you prioritize the pillars? Like, how do you know the visual home or the home or like the discipline was the one, the first, the biggest.

Diane: Yeah. So this is where this is, I guess, the step that. The phase or the step that has this lesser framework. Right. It has sort of the fewer steps because it comes back to going synthesis, synthesizing all of your findings and making sure you do that in a really clear way to help you with this next step. So maybe if I kind of walk through how I filter the findings, it might help you understand how I can pull out those themes. So let’s think about the voice of customer research that I’ve done. I’ve interviewed a bunch of customers, great fit customers that have talked through their pains, their needs, their desires, their objections, their hesitations, all of this stuff. What I do is go through these transcripts, like word by word and pull out messaging and phrases that are interesting and put them. So I actually work in an Excel. I have this like, huge framework with like seven, eight columns. Well, seven or eight separate sheets, actually. So I build separate sheets and I kind of list out the messaging and I tag and Highlight the theme, the key theme based on the words that are used. So someone said, oh, this is just like, great. I can just log in to this thing that, like, houses. Houses all of my photos and images. Cool. So I’m going to copy and paste that messaging, put it into an Excel, and then the theme. There is this idea of like a home, a centralized hub, et cetera. And after you’ve done this process, you can then look through and kind of prioritize and look at how many times things were said. So look at the kind of quantitative side of things, but you can also look at the kind of qualitative side side of the messaging. Like what was said that was really interesting or really, like, sticky. Right. So something that’s really memorable. And at the end, you kind of walk away with this clear. Sorry, I’m using my hands loads for a podcast. So no one can see.

Louis: They can’t see. They can’t see it.

Diane: Walking away with this, like, clear list and prioritized list of messages and themes. So now when it comes to building out messaging pillars, what you’re going to do is it’s just looking at, what did we say? What do we want to stand for? What are the opportunities? What is our value proposition? Because remember, this is the last layer. So you should have clearly worked out, you should have clearly listed out your, your usps, your differentiators, clearly listed out your. Your goals, written a story as well, that kind of guides your business activity, like the one that I shared before about messaging, that it isn’t you, that it’s like, really tough to do this. You’ve got a clear value proposition, and now what you’re doing is filtering all of the feedback that you got into the most prioritized messages that you think you can own, but also align with the key value that your customer is getting from your product.

Louis: So the intersection of basically what you, who you are, what you believe in, your differentiator and what people say. Right? And like the sweet spot between the two.

Diane: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So if we, you know, we. Let’s go back to that exact example of the kind of digital asset management tool. I said one of the key themes that we came up with is this idea of, like, it being a centralized home, centralized hub. One of the other key themes was speed. Right? So speed, it’s a very simple benefit or value, but it was. It came up in every single conversation, and it is a key value that they’re delivering because a lot of their customers before were not necessarily using competitors. A lot of their Customers were just storing all of their visual assets in Dropbox and in and in Drive. And it’s really clunky and it’s really slow. So speed was a very key. A key messaging pillar they could own. And then we’d build out messages underneath that and then proof points underneath that.

Louis: Do you have a hard stop in a minute?

Diane: I do not. Okay, we can keep going. I’m like, I’m good.

Louis: We have seven minutes or so to make an hour episode. So in retrospect, then we have step one to audit the stuff. Right. Step two to find out what customers are saying. Step three, competitive analysis, Figuring out what’s not being said in particular by competitors. We’re going to come back to that. Filtering a finding, like the word by word analysis, looking at the core themes and then mapping things out across four layers. Where we exist, who we are, what we do, how we say it, and particularly at the end, it’s really the intersection of the key themes that people say, but also what you do internally and your own belief. And the intersection should give you some sort of interesting insight. Is that a good summary?

Diane: Brilliant summary.

Louis: I think I’m very good at my job.

Diane: Yeah, well, you should be by now, right?

Louis: Well, yeah, I’m not going to talk about other marketing podcasters, but. Okay. So step four, step three. I want to come back to that. Finding the negative space. Right. The well space or whatever you want to call it, what’s not being said. I want to. I want to go back to that because this is critical and something I see people forgetting so many times, so often. Right. I talk about it in my daily emails a lot. So it’s not just what they’re not saying. Right. Because we’re talking messaging. It could be how they’re not saying it, who is not saying it, stuff like that. So those are questions that give you way more than what are they saying and how they’re saying it. Right. I mean, that’s what I believe. So how do you do your competitive analysis?

Step 3: Finding the Negative Space in Competitive Analysis

Diane: Yeah, so I, again, love to work with tables, love to work with tables, love to work in Google sheets. Bit of a nerd in that sense. Um, and I have a kind of a framework. I head to at least like four or five, depending on obviously the company and how many key competitors you. You have head to their website and kind of analyze their messaging across, like, nine layers or nine areas that I kind of call like my nine layers of competitive messaging. Right. So I’ll have a table across, like, down the side. I’ll list the Competitor’s name on the left hand side and then across the top I’m going to look for number one, like what’s the key leading message? Right. So that’s usually I’m looking straight at the headline, like what is the headline on their website? What is the key value proposition as well. So when we’re on a website that often will come out through, through the sub headline might be buried but generally it’s going to be there. I’m going to look at what are the top benefits, the key like top three benefits that are coming through through their messaging. Also what are the key features? If you know, features in that sense, if we’re looking at a tool or a service, what are the key features of that service? Then I’m also going to look at what proof points are they using. So for example, what are the success stats like that they’re leaning on? Like are they showing, are they dropping a percentage in that they’re X fastest? Do they have a network of providers? Are they saying they’re in X number of countries? Like which, which proof points are they leaning on? Or kind of social. Social proof. Then the next thing that I look at is kind of what I call like the positioning pitch. So since I work a lot with B2B in tech, I often head to like G2Capterra. If not, sometimes I head to LinkedIn and I like copy paste and have a look at that sort of longer elevator pitch. Right. Because that’s never on a website’s home, but it is somewhere like there is somewhere online where this company has had to describe in much more detail like this is who we are, this is what we do. And this is kind of like our little elevator pitch and positioning pitch. So I also scrape that too to just see how they, they phrase and talk about the whole kind of ecosystem. The next. I don’t know what number we’re on. Maybe we’re on seven. Now the next thing that I look for is how do they say it? So you touched on that. So I try to pick out without getting too stuck but just like what are the key kind of brand voice traits that are jumping out at me? Like, are they a bit. Maybe they’re a bit contrarian like you. Maybe they’re a bit more relaxed, very casual. It’s a bit. So I’ll just pluck out a couple of adjectives to kind of describe how they were expressing their message as well. And then I like to also look for what they stand for. So like what is that one? Like if I’M going to put it in one phrase or one word. What’s that one key thing? So, like, they’re all about growth or super human is all about speed. Like, what’s the one thing? The one key theme. And then the final thing that I’m going to look for. And this takes a little bit more work. And this is why my table ends up being a bit of a beast. I will look through, going back to the headline, the value prop, and like, the key benefits. I’m going to kind of tally all of the key messaging themes. So I create a bunch of columns across the top with, like, keywords, like, it’ll be okay. Growth, okay, Speed, creative efficiency, or all of these messaging things that are coming up in my competitors. Uh, maybe they say everyone says effortless. So that’s a tab at the top and the visual aspect, that’s another tab. And I just kind of use colors or X’s to kind of fill in the boxes. I’ve got this also. There’s a visual board that I don’t have to think about too much, but I can see out of all of these themes, like, who is saying the exact same stuff? Where’s there an opportunity? And also, you want to make sure you do this for your own current messaging as well. So you can see very easily and very quickly at a glance that like four out of five of my key competitors are all saying, easy, effortless, organize your stuff. And then you’re like, okay, cool. Well, this is not what we’re all about. We’re not all about organizational efficiency. Our approach is actually about getting more out of your assets, getting more from your images or enjoying your work again and living, putting all of your pictures in this beautiful space. So now we know we’ve got a really great opening and a great angle to kind of to bring to the forefront.

Louis: Beautiful. I want to thank you for going through all of this, for preparing so well for this interview, for giving so many details. I think those details are needed because as I said, I don’t think I’ve ever come across any proper insight about messaging and nitty gritty. So then it’s. It’s been really good to take notes. I’ve taken a lot of notes, which is great. I’ve actually changed my method of interviewing, believe it or not. So before I restarted those interviews, I used to not take notes and I used to try to remember what people say. I’m like, I started taking notes. The first interview I started again, I was like, why didn’t the fuck didn’t I do that from the start.

Diane: I did listen to one. I did listen to one recently actually where you were like, yeah, I’ve just written something down that I’m going to go and like implement something.

Louis: Yeah, but like that’s very. I used to that rarely. Now I do that all the time and it changed. It’s much easier. Anyway, before I let you go, I have a couple of questions I ask all the time. Right. What do you think people listening should learn today that will help them the next 5, 10, 50 years?

Diane: Oh yeah. So this I’m unbiased. Right. But I have like no doubt that the key skill that marketers should invest in now is just effective communication. Like I think this as a core skill might seem like a soft skill, but it will stand the test of time. It’s a bit of a cop out I think because communication covers so much. But you know, it’s not even about just copywriting. Like effective human is not about just writing, but it’s about psychology, about empathy, understanding. Great communicators are great listeners, which you have to be in marketing. You then also have to be able to express yourself clearly in a relevant way with a kind of understanding of your environment. As marketers, you need to defend and express your ideas. Right. And your visions and what you’re trying to do and then of course to persuade. Right. So. So I just think effective communicating well is, is a key skill. That’s a life skill.

Louis: A hundred percent. What are the top three resources you recommend?

Diane: So I would say the top resource for me has, is, is like no doubt Copy hackers. Copy Hackers is. I don’t even know how to describe it. They are like, they have a blog of copywriting resources, tutorials. They also have paid and paid courses and free kind of tutorials all about conversion focus, copywriting, marketing, growth marketing. Joanna Weber is the founder who I know you’ve had on the show as well.

Louis: She was like, she’s actually coming back to talk about the AI too.

Diane: Awesome. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, Joanna Weaver has been like a mentor of mine throughout my kind of copywriting and messaging career. So a lot of the learnings and processes that she shares there are awesome. The second place I would say is the Marketing Meetup. The Marketing Meetup is kind of a uk, UK based. They started as an in person event. After the pandemic they kind of switched to online webinars and like delivering content. But they’ve kind of brought back the in person stuff. And I think particularly if like solo marketers, it’s kind of lonely and it’s a really cool place to connect with other marketers and kind of learn in a kind of relaxed environment. I don’t know, I haven’t really. I can’t think of a third one. You know what the worst thing is? If, if it wasn’t on this podcast, I would say Everyone hates Marketers podcast, but I don’t want to give you a big head.

Louis: So it’s already massive. Diane, don’t worry about it.

Diane: Honestly, this was, I’ve recommended this podcast to so many people and I think it’s because of the way that, like you said, it’s really hard to find like step by step walkthroughs of like processes. And so it’s, I think it’s great for. I think that the way that you approach breaking down some of these kind of fluffy concepts is really cool.

Louis: Ah, thanks. I really appreciate it coming from you. You’ve been sharing the podcast, as you said, for years at this stage. And I just value so much our friendship and the fact that you’ve been there alongside me for a while. And so where can people connect with you and learn more from you?

Diane: I spend an unhealthy amount of time on LinkedIn, so that’s definitely the best place to follow or connect with me. I post almost daily about messaging and positioning and copywriting and kind of how to do it better. And my DMs are open, so do feel free to message me if you listen to this podcast and something resonated or you have any thoughts or questions that I can help you with. I love chewing the fat on all things marketing and having real conversations with people. Surprise, surprise. And of course the other place you can find me [email protected] so lion the animal words.com which is my messaging consultancy. So you know, if you’re part of a growing tech company or service based business in the B2B space and would like to know more about the services they offer or get help with your own messaging, then yeah, feel free to get in touch.

Louis: All right, Diane, once again, thank you so much.

Diane: You’re welcome. Thanks for having me.

Louis: And that’s it for another episode of Everyone Hates Marketers dot com. Thank you so much for listening. I’m super, super grateful. I’d love for you to consider subscribing to my daily newsletter Monday to Friday called Stand the Fuck Out Daily. I send very short, hopefully interesting, surprising, shocking, entertaining content to help you Stand the fuck out. It’s ateveryonehates marketers.com. you can subscribe for free and obviously unsubscribe whenever you want. I’m just gonna read a couple of emails that I got recently as a reply. Juma said, your content attacks the mind primarily, which is such a good thing because most of us are skilled at what we do, but we don’t have the courage to do it our way. Mark, who just subscribed couple days before, said, this is my first issue of your newsletter. Love it. Glad I subscribed. Brianna Said, I just realized this morning that my email habit is now two 1. Skim through the list. 2. Select all unread industry email except yours. 3. Delete and don’t think twice. 4. Quickly scheme yours. Amy said, Also loving the new content that’s coming from you. It feels really lovely. I like your writing a lot. It really resonates. There’s so much bullshit there. It’s good to touch the authentic. And Chloe said, where is the I love this email button? Brilliant. I hope you subscribe. You’ll be joining more than 14,000 subscribers at this stage, which is crazy. It’s the size of a small stadium. Anyway, thank you so much. See you on the other side.