Chapter 3: The Patterns
How to turn raw interview data into actionable patterns without a treasure map.
If you’re into mushrooming, you’ll know that you can buy field guides to help you identify wild mushrooms.
Knowing your mushrooms is rather important if you want to, you know, live. Porcini mushrooms blend right in with dead leaves, all brown and round and innocent-looking. But get this—there’s a look-alike, the Devil’s bolete, that could really ruin your day. And by ruin, I mean … well, let’s just say you don’t want to find out the hard way.
Do you know what field guides are useless at, though? Giving you exact spots to find mushrooms. That’s because mushrooms sprout semi-randomly based on factors you can’t control, such as temperature, moisture, and nutrient availability. This makes it impossible to predict where and when they will appear.
The Problem: There’s No Map …
Growth hacks. Quick fixes. Instant results. Simple tweaks.
We’re inundated with advice promising us that selling stuff to people is easy. “Just follow those 14 steps!” they say. And then, when we can’t seem to make it work, we doubt ourselves.
With marketing, just like mushrooming, there’s no fucking map. You have to experience things yourself. You have to get out and wander through the forest without a GPS. You have to seek discomfort.
The Solution: . . but There Are Guidelines
So, look. Don’t expect a treasure map with a big, fat X marking the spot where all the juicy insights are buried. That part is up to you. Anyone trying to sell you that kind of shortcut is full of merde.
Here’s what I can offer you instead … a set of guidelines to give you the best chance to unearth juicy insights:
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Do not expect to find all six insights every time you talk to a customer or read an online review. Sometimes nothing interesting will come up, while other times, you might strike gold by getting the full story from one source.
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You want to be open and curious about your customer’s thought process from start to finish. Yes, you might miss some details occasionally, but this is how you learn and gather insights. Think of yourself as an adventurer, here to explore.
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Every time you come across an insight, record it with care. Once again, this could be the piece of information that could be used as the core of standing the f*ck out against top dogs. Specifically, record what you hear, see, or read without summarizing it.
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Add depth by noting the emotions you can sense. Are customers using negative, emotionally charged language to describe their anger, fear, or even disgust? Or are they using positive language? Also, depending on the method you use, pay attention to nonverbal cues like facial expressions or body language.
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Only pay attention to insights coming from people who have recently invested resources—such as time, money, and/or effort—to address the problem you’re interested in solving. Oui, oui, it bears repeating. If you have any doubt or sense something’s wrong, always trust your judgment.
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Don’t let others pick insights on your behalf (if possible). It could be tempting to outsource this entire process to a human (or a machine) to save time. But I must caution you against it. Of course, you don’t have to do all the groundwork yourself, but you do need to take part in the journey one way or another to make sure you don’t miss subtle details that could give you an edge.
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Now that you have the overall guidelines to guide you, Table 3.1 shows how to spot specific insights.
Table 3.1. Field Guide Summary
| Insight | Questions | What to Look For | Example |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1. Job | What did they try to accomplish? | Objectives and expected results | ’[I want] long, beautiful hair that everyone can see.‘ |
| 2. Alternatives | What other solutions have they used or considered? | Work-arounds, hacks, and other solutions | ’I considered hiring interns to do the work instead of using software.‘ |
| 3. Struggles | What problems were they trying to solve? | Extreme emotions: frustration, anger, or joy | ’I’m sick of being late for picking up the kiddos from daycare again.‘ |
| 4. Segment | What customer information is relevant? | What they say about themselves (worldviews, beliefs, interests) | ‘I’ve been in the fitness industry since the late 80s and I’ve seen it all.‘ |
| 5. Category | What other things belong in the same group? | How people describe what is offered in their own words | ’Oh … so it’s like normal paint, but washable?‘ |
| 6. Triggers | What specific events compelled them to act? | Precise moments that led to a decision; context (when, where, with whom, with what) | ‘My boss said we couldn’t have phones at work anymore, so I bought a smartwatch.’ |
Here are my recommendations for the most common insight-foraging methods. This should be more than enough for you to feel confident exploring the woods in search of juicy insights.
Insight Foraging with … Customer Interviews
With customer interviews, you get to ask questions in a controlled environment to uncover insights. This works well with recent, complex purchases where a lot was at stake and many people were involved—which is why it’s a popular choice for folks selling to B2B companies. In other words, do not use interviews for folks who bought something quickly without thinking too much about it—like the Crayola washable paint bottles I bought 12 days ago.
Although this is called a customer interview, do not treat the exercise as one. You’re simply conversing casually with someone you want to learn more about. Keep the six insights in mind, but don’t obsess over trying to get precise answers for every question.
I like to start the conversation with something to the effect of: “Bonjour, bonjour [first name], thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me; it means a lot. Again, I’m not trying to sell you anything. I’m working on [area of focus], and I want to learn as much from you as possible so we can stand the f*ck out.”
Then I get into small talk to build rapport. I ask things like, “Where are you based? What’s the weather like where you are? What’s that painting behind you? What’s that microphone you’re using?”
Then depending on where you are, you may want to ask permission to record: “Is it OK to record this conversation? It’s for internal purposes only and it allows me to listen to you instead of taking too many notes.”
Then I like to start the “real” interview without mentioning it. I just get started with small and easy questions to build people’s confidence before getting to more complex ones: “In which department do you work? How long have you been working there? Is French the sexiest accent?”
This is when I like to dig deep to understand the story—their story: “OK, let’s go back in time a bit. Do you remember the first time you thought about [getting the job done, solving this struggle]? Yes? OK, tell me more.”
I never trust their first answer and always aim to go deeper: “Oh yes? What do you mean? How did you go about it? OK, that sounds super interesting. Tell me more, puh-lease.” Focus on the past (not the future).
I end the call by asking if this conversation sparked any comments, questions, thoughts—anything at all. Sometimes this last prompt delivers the juiciest insights, so give people time to think about it before wrapping up.
Insight Foraging with … Surveys
With surveys, you can ask questions in an asynchronous way. This works best if you have many existing customers that you can easily contact via email. You can then follow up with some of the respondents for a proper interview to dig deeper.
I like to test my questions before sending a questionnaire to a large number of people. There’s a certain art to creating prompts that elicit good answers and it’s unlikely you will get it right the first time around.
When testing, I like to look for telltale signs that my questions need to be improved:
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Responses like “Huh?” or “I don’t know”
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Answers that completely miss the point of the question
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Nonanswers or vague replies
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Formatting issues that confuse respondents (like using single-line input for questions that require longer responses)
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You’d be surprised how differently people can interpret your words. By refining your questions based on these test responses, you’ll increase your chances of uncovering valuable insights when you send out the final questionnaire.
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Just like with interviews, you want to start with small and easy questions to build their confidence. Multiple-choice questions are helpful here so respondents can “warm up.”
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Also, as a rule of thumb, treat one question as one thing you want to know—don’t bundle a bunch of questions together because it’s very overwhelming for participants. For example, “What other solutions did you consider, and what’s the one thing you love about our product?” is a multilayered question that should be split into two.
Use open-ended questions to uncover the insights you’re really interested in unearthing. Instead of asking about hypothetical situations or settling for a simple yes or no, encourage people to open up and share their experiences. For example, instead of asking, “Did you consider other shampoos before buying this one?,” try something like, “What other solutions did you explore when looking for a shampoo?” See the difference? Open-ended questions like this invite detailed responses and uncover the “why” behind people’s actions.
As a final tip, I always end my surveys with something like, “Is there anything else you’d like to add? Don’t be shy! We love feedback.” Just like with interviews, this sometimes leads to some golden nuggets.
Insight Foraging with … Reviews
With review mining, you want to find places where people have shared their recent experiences about specific products or services. It’s my personal favorite when I’m strapped for time and want to get a head start.
My best tip is to pay attention only to long, passionate reviews that describe an experience either very positively or very negatively. You probably have limited time to get this done, so please save your brainpower for the most interesting reviews.
Use your gut to weed out reviews that sound fake or clearly written to get something in return. For example, if a review sounds too good to be true, too polished, or way too enthusiastic about what it’s describing, it probably is.
Insight Foraging with … Communities
This technique relies on participating in online communities, forums, or virtual conferences where your segment already congregates to observe what’s being said. Sometimes being a member of just one of those communities can be more than enough to find juicy insights.
In a similar way to review mining, you want to focus your attention on posts with loads of engagement (such as number of comments) and highly emotional content. And then, of course, look for evidence of past behavior—not hypothetical future actions—to make sure your foraging basket does not contain poisonous specimens.
Insight Foraging with … the Fly-on-the-Wall Technique
This is Mark Ritson’s favorite technique for making his clients—senior marketers working for huge brands—realize they’re “standing in the dark.” He would take them out into the field and get them to hang out with customers while their products were being chosen and consumed. Obviously, this works particularly well in retail, where you can just go to a shop and observe people in their natural habitat.
This is a bit challenging in more secretive environments, but still doable. Nothing stops you from contacting B2B clients, for example, and asking them if you could be a fly on the wall for one day to observe how they get things done. Sure, you won’t map out their entire sales cycle, but you might develop your empathy and curiosity. Who knows what unexpected gems you’ll uncover?
Insight Foraging with … Method Marketing
With method marketing, you don’t just think about your customers; you become them. You want to try to experience what they experience, see the world through their eyes, and use the products they use.
Think of Robert De Niro in Taxi Driver. To accurately portray Travis Bickle, he immersed himself in the character’s world, even driving a taxi every weekend. The result was a raw and authentic performance.
This technique is especially useful if you’re new to an industry since it helps you understand your customers by putting yourself in their shoes. It’s not perfect. You won’t be experiencing the product or service for real since you’re pretending, but that doesn’t mean it’s useless.
Here’s my advice: record every single thought you have, especially at the start. Don’t dismiss anything as irrelevant. The beauty lies in capturing those raw, first-time impressions that you can get only once.
This is a very accessible technique, with one caveat: If you’re already an expert in your sector, you might know too much. You won’t be able to see things from a beginner’s eyes, which, in turn, means that you may be unable to extract juicy insights.
Continue reading in the book
This is an excerpt from "The Patterns" in Stand The F*ck Out. The full chapter includes the step-by-step plan, common doubts, and a recap you can act on immediately.
The Stand The F*ck Out framework, introduced by Louis Grenier in 2024, consists of four stages: insight foraging, unique positioning, distinctive brand, and continuous reach.